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David Krakauer is a leading complex systems researcher and the president of the Santa Fe Institute, a unique institution dedicated to studying complex systems across disciplines. In this episode, David challenges conventional wisdom about AI, arguing that large language models pose a more immediate threat to humanity than commonly discussed existential risks—not by destroying us directly, but by eroding our cognitive capabilities through addictive, low-quality information.
We explore:
Why David believes LLMs aren't intelligent at all and how the AI community misunderstands emergence
The three dimensions of intelligence: inference, representation, and strategy—and which one LLMs lack
How AI acts as a "competitive" rather than "complementary" cognitive technology, atrophying our thinking abilities
What makes great minds unique, from analogical reasoning to the cultivation of unconscious creativity
How Cormac McCarthy's approach to knowledge and creativity offers lessons for the AI age
Why David believes the greatest threat from AI isn't existential risk but cognitive atrophy
How to protect your mind against AI's addictive pull and maintain cognitive autonomy
Explore the episode
Timestamps
(00:00) Intro
(04:39) The Santa Fe Institute’s approach to complex systems
(06:45) Murray Gell-Mann’s ‘Odysseus vs. Apollonian’
(10:35) How SFI was shaped by the legacy of Los Alamos
(12:45) Traits David looks for in great minds
(14:43) Cormac McCarthy on naivety and how thoughtful people treat knowledge
(19:24) A simple explanation of complexity science
(22:50) Why vantage point doesn’t matter when studying systems
(24:36) Aesthetic preferences among complexity scientists
(26:07) Films and directors with complexity science themes
(29:57) Why David argues LLMs are not intelligent
(32:10) What’s missing in the study of LLMs
(36:40) The three qualities of intelligence and how LLMs measure up
(42:19) Lessons from "The Glass Bead Game"
(44:00) David’s perspective on reinforcement learning
(45:38) The greatest threat of LLMs: overreliance and the decline of thinking
(47:40) Competitive vs. complementary cognitive artifacts
(51:55) Why exposing yourself to quality ideas matters
(54:00) How to derisk LLM use
(58:32) Cormac McCarthy’s legacy at SFI and beyond
(1:02:40) The Kekulé Problem: cultivating the unconscious
(1:05:01) Why David and McCarthy were inspired by Wittgenstein
(1:09:00) What Cormac McCarthy liked to talk about
(1:12:20) David’s questions to a higher being
(1:14:46) Final meditations
Follow David Krakauer
Website: https://davidckrakauer.com/
Resources and episode mentions
Books
“The Hedgehog and the Fox”: https://www.amazon.com/Hedgehog-Fox-Tolstoys-History-Second/dp/069115600X
The Birds and The Frogs: https://www.amazon.com/Aristophanes-Frogs-Birds/dp/B000QBPUTY
The Glass Bead Game: https://www.amazon.com/Glass-Bead-Game-Magister-Novel/dp/0312278497
Frankenstein: https://www.amazon.com/Frankenstein-Mary-Shelley/dp/0486282112
Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Meridian-Evening-Redness-West/dp/0679728759
Stella Maris: https://www.amazon.com/Stella-Maris-Cormac-McCarthy/dp/0307269000
The Passenger: https://www.amazon.com/Passenger-Cormac-McCarthy/dp/0307268993/
Pale Fire: https://www.amazon.com/Pale-Fire-Vladimir-Nabokov/dp/0679723420
Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus: https://www.amazon.com/Tractatus-Logico-Philosophicus-Routledge-Classics-123/dp/0415254086
Ludwig Wittgenstein: The Duty of Genius: https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-Wittgenstein-Genius-Ray-Monk/dp/0140159959
Ellmann's Joyce: The Biography of a Masterpiece and Its Maker: https://www.amazon.com/Ellmanns-Joyce-Biography-Masterpiece-Maker/dp/0674248392
Moby Dick: https://www.amazon.com/Moby-Dick-Herman-Melville/dp/1503280780
Hyperobjects: Philosophy and Ecology after the End of the World: https://www.amazon.com/Hyperobjects-Philosophy-Ecology-after-Posthumanities/dp/0816689237
The Anatomy of Melancholy: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Melancholy-Review-Books-Classics/dp/0940322668
The Golden Bough: A Study of Magic and Religion: Volume I: https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Bough-Vol-Study-Religion/dp/1480131466
Three Critiques: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Critiques-3-Set-Practical/dp/0872206297
The World as Will and Representation: https://www.amazon.com/World-Will-Representation-Vol/dp/0486217612/
People
Cormac McCarthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cormac_McCarthy
Murray Gell-Mann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann
Archilochus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archilochus
Fyodor Dostoevsky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Dostoevsky
Leo Tolstoy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy
Aristophanes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristophanes
Eugene Wigner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wigner
Leo Szilard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Szilard
John von Neumann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann
Michel de Montaigne: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_de_Montaigne
Melanie Mitchell’s website: https://melaniemitchell.me/
Ingmar Bergman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingmar_Bergman
Akira Kurosawa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_Kurosawa#Legacy_and_cultural_impact
Andrei Tarkovsky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Tarkovsky
John Henry Holland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_Holland
Christopher Nolan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Nolan
Jonathan Nolan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Nolan
Henry James: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_James
Vladimir Nabokov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Nabokov
Frank Lloyd Wright: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright
Other resources
The Santa Fe Institute: https://www.santafe.edu/
The Cormac McCarthy I Know: https://davidckrakauer.com/artifacts/2022-the-cormac-mccarthy-i-know
Michel de Montaigne’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6873908-we-can-be-knowledgeable-with-another-man-s-knowledge-but-we
The Seventh Seal: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050976/
Rashomon: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042876/
The Exterminating Angel: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056732/
2001: A Space Odyssey: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/
Large Language Models and Emergence: A Complex Systems Perspective: https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2025arXiv250611135K/abstract
Kind of Blue: https://www.amazon.com/Kind-Blue-Miles-Davis/dp/B000002ADT
Why neural net pioneer Geoffrey Hinton is sounding the alarm on AI: https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/why-neural-net-pioneer-geoffrey-hinton-sounding-alarm-ai
Why the Real Computer Revolution Never Happened | Alan Kay & Anjan Katta: https://www.generalist.com/p/why-the-real-computer-revolution-never-happened
Zettelkasten: https://zettelkasten.de/overview/
ImageNet: https://www.image-net.org/
The Kekulé Problem: https://nautil.us/the-kekul-problem-236574/
Robert Frost’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/71609-writing-free-verse-is-like-playing-tennis-with-the-net
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